Axon says cops are asking it to make its automatic license plate readers (ALPRs) look different from Flock cameras because Flock vandalism has become so widespread, according to comments Axon’s CEO made in a now deleted webinar.

The comments highlight how Axon is trying to take advantage of sustained opposition against Flock's license plate cameras, with one law enforcement customer suggesting a camera redesign would “help with the optics while we batten down the hatches” as the backlash spreads.

As 404 Media has reported, some towns and cities are switching from Flock to Axon’s cameras after cops did lookups for ICE in Flock, tracked a woman who self-administered an abortion, and have repeatedly abused their access to stalk ex-spouses. ALPRs constantly scan the license plate, brand, model, and other identifying features of all vehicles that drive past the camera and then make this timestamped log of activity searchable by law enforcement without a warrant.

In an August 26 webinar that was hosted on Axon’s official Vimeo page called “From backlash to trust,” Axon Chief Customer Officer Mike Wagers took a question from the remote audience and asked, “is there any talk — and there has been talk — to redesign Outpost, our fixed ALPR camera, to not look exactly like a Flock camera?”

“We are looking at [...] do we change the general shape,” Rick Smith, Axon’s CEO, replied.

At another point in the webinar, Smith brought up Axon’s Lightpost product, which is an ALPR and AI-powered camera that attaches to an existing streetlight. “Frankly, we’ve had a lot of customers saying, hey, we’d like something that looks different because there is all this blowback. ​​It's harder to vandalize because it's up higher,” he said.

Smith also said, “We’ve had some people say they’d like to see us make just a different camera, because our ALPR camera looks like an ALPR camera.” Another idea Smith brought up, pending customer feedback, is to go in the other direction and make ALPRs more explicit, with signs showing where they are located and a description of the city’s ALPR policies. 

MegaraMedia, a YouTuber, downloaded a copy of the webinar before it was removed and shared it with 404 Media.

During the webinar, Axon asked its law enforcement customers to chime in with questions and answer a customer survey. 404 Media scanned the QR code displayed during the webinar to view those questions. One, which appears to be the one Wagers paraphrased, read, “Is there any talk to redesign the Outpost to not look exactly like the Flock camera — I think it will help agencies with the optics while we batten down the hatches…”

Axon did not respond to a request for comment.

Around the country people have destroyed Flock cameras, including tearing them down, backing trucks into them, or spray painting over their lenses. Authorities have arrested and charged multiple people in connection with that vandalism. In one case, a cop made a fake, 3D-printed Flock camera to essentially act as bait; authorities then charged a man who broke the fake camera with three felonies.

One explicit reason some cities have ditched Flock for Axon is Flock’s national network. This allows a cop on one side of the country to search cameras not only in their own jurisdiction or state, but in another state entirely. When reporting on how local cops were performing Flock lookups for ICE, 404 Media found that some police departments did not know or understand their cameras were accessible by other agencies.

Smith said of the backlash against Flock and ALPR more generally: “This has been a hell of a storm.”

Body camera footage obtained by 404 Media shows a police officer explaining why he used police databases and license plate reader cameras to research, stalk, and pull over a woman he met on the set of a TV show. "I mean, I saw a shiny thing, teasing and all that," the cop said in the footage. "I knew that when I put that [into the system], I was like ‘Fuck.’"

404 Media obtained more than an hour of body camera footage that shows the investigation into Florida cop Lamar Roman, who met a woman on the set of the Apple TV show Bad Monkey, then illegally researched her using government department of motor vehicles databases, put her license plate on a police “hot list” that would notify him when she drove past an automated license plate reader camera, nearly caused a head-on collision while speeding to track her down, and illegally pulled her over after stalking her. We previously published footage from Roman’s police cruiser; the new footage shows police station interviews with Roman about why he did what he did, an anonymized police station interview with the victim about his actions, and the eventual arrest of Roman in front of his home. 

The detective investigating Roman told the man “you’ll get past this bro” during his arrest, and later told the victim that he was "remorseful" and urged her not to post about the incident on social media, according to body camera footage obtained by 404 Media.

The footage also shows that the investigator told the victim that “we’ve had deputies misuse databases, we’ve told them over and over again ‘that’s not what it’s for. You see a hot chick, you don’t look them up in a database. That’s not what it’s for.’”

The footage gives unprecedented insight into how and why abusive police use government spy tools including license plate reader cameras to surveil and stalk victims, how victims are informed of this surveillance, and how cops are treated when they are ultimately arrested for this crime. The footage is particularly notable as dozens of cops around the country have been caught abusing Flock and other ALPR systems to stalk ex wives, ex partners, and random people. When 404 Media wrote about this issue in early July, Flock claimed it was “aware of 15 incidents of abuse,” though we, local media, and a report by the Institute for Justice had found far more than that. The Washington Post then found “at least 50” incidents and, now, Flock’s CEO Garrett Langley is saying that its system has “caught a lot of bad cops. It’s a ton. It’s more than I ever would have hoped.” (Roman used an ALPR system called Guardian made by a company called Turing.)